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Previous: Police car | Main | Next: Scrapbook store sign
May 9, 2006 12:03 AM
Broken: Windows "auto-restart"
A college professor writes in:
I was printing out a long Powerpoint file when the “Auto-restart” window came up...without the ability to delay the restart!
It ended up with a sprint to the finish line – thankfully, the print job finished before the restart.
*Doh* you've just given the microsoft haters written permission to have a field day.
Motivation and emotion? pfhhh who needs those.
ARGH! Windows used to do this to me during long video renders, and I'd lose 4 or more hours of "work". Then I stopped being lazy and learned how to fix it, which took me forever but which was worth it. I will give you the secret for a thousand dollars.
Like 'em or hate 'em, this is sadly typical of MS. In what alternate universe is it a GOOD thing for the OS to take control of itself and shut down regardless of what you're doing, and on top of that prevent you from doing anything about it until after the fact?
I used to work at a company that had all the PCs set up to do this, and the ability to change any settings locked out under some higher admin privelege than the mere users had. I could practically hear the IT department's evil cackling every time the damn PCs updated themselves in the middle of some important project.
I don't work for that company any more, thank God.
The issue is that the firewall thinks it detects an intruder. Hence, if there is an intruder, the best thing (from Window's perspective) is to restart and completely thwart the attact.
It's A solution, but probably not the best one. But there is a method to the madness.
Solution: Turn off the windows firewall. That should fix it no problem.
Now that that's said all in a fairly un-biased stance - it is totally messed-up and pissy and lame and it burns my ass.!
Dave: This isn't the Windows Firewall, this is the AutoUpdate. It has nothing to do with catching intruders, just installing updates.
But there is informationt hat it will restart in 4:01 minutes meaning that Windows had probably counted how fast the printing was going to finish.
So, lame poster, not Windows (I am not Windows user).
Ok, correction: "...information that it will ..."
But: This is broken is broken as well, because when I checked Remember personal info, nothing happens and info got cleared in form!
Q. Why does Mac need to be the only alternative to Windows?
A. Because of Apple's marketing.
I would like to strongly recommend Ubuntu Linux to any Windows user who has become sufficiently annoyed with Windows getting broken. I would also recommend it to Linux or other *NIX users who have had enough of *NIX configuration.
Ubuntu is free. There is a live demo CD (boots from CD, runs from CD, remove the CD and the system goes back to whatever it was) that can be used to try it out.
Oh, I forgot to mention.... Just like Windows, Ubuntu retrieves updates automatically. What it does NOT do, however, is force a reboot. For that matter, the updates rarely ever even *NEED* a reboot.
What's actually broken here is his tech department. Either through Group Policies, or the Registry, Windows Updates can be configured so that it *gives the option* to reboot now or later if users are logged in. As you can see in that screenshot, the machine was not configured that way. It can be severely disruptive, as the poster suggests.
So either the arcane, user-unfriendly policies of the IT department, or the lack of knowledge in the department, is actually to blame here, not MSFT. I'm a Mac user, and couldn't possibly be paid enough to use Windows day-to-day, but, this is a misconfiguration, not bad software.
See http://support.microsoft.com/kb/328010/#EXABAAA for the relevant bits from MSFT.
The only reason that the Restart Later option isnt available is because you are not an administrator, it isnt broken.
But even if you turn on the option to Restart Later, a popup still comes up at random times, which is annoying, and if you click at the wrong time, you'll Restart Now. But yes, Windows has a tendency to allow a lot of options tinkering in some areas and little in others. After installing new software and restarting a few days ago, I was faced with a notification: "The following program may be dangerous to your computer. It has been shut down to prevent damage. Windows Explorer". Thus, I was forced to restart again because the Windows GUI quit and relaunched continuously.
Where I work the computers never reboot while a user is logged on. After an update is installed an un-closable window opens warning that "Safe Reboot" will reboot the computer as soon as the present user logs off. I don’t know if this is separate software or a setting in Windows.
Configuring (being able to configure) auto-update to automatically update and reboot the computer without input from the user is seriously broken.
In reply to dusoft's comment about calculating time till the print finishes, you are wrong.
Autoupdate ALWAYS counts down from 5min.
What if you had been giving the presentation? Would it still have rebooted, while you were trying to present your information?
> What if you had been giving the presentation?
> Would it still have rebooted, while you were
> trying to present your information?
It would have tried - the same thing happened at the AIPLA annual meeting a year or two ago. One of the presenters was droning on about some arcane feature of foreign patent law, and the entire audience was focused on the clock counting down the time for his presentation to crash and burn.
"Configuring (being able to configure) auto-update to automatically update and reboot the computer without input from the user is seriously broken."
No, it's not really. What makes it not broken is that the user is given a choice, even though Windows recommends auto-updating. What makes it broken is tech people forcing auto-updating.
This isn't Microsoft's fault, but the fault of whoever set up the policy on the college professor's active directory. You can do the same thing in OS X, if he happened to be using that. Or presumably Linux, although I don't know much about Linux.
Anyway, the solution is simple which is why most people don't think of it: Just set your clock back a few hours. The restart doesn't happen "in five minutes" it happens "five minutes from now." If your computer thinks "now" is three hours ago, you have plenty of time to finish what you're doing.
(Then again, whoever set this policy probably also disabled changing the clock, so maybe that wouldn't work. It all depends.)
>eafarris:"What's actually broken here is his tech department...arcane, user-unfriendly policies of the IT department, or the lack of knowledge in the department, is actually to blame here, not MSFT...this is a misconfiguration, not bad software."
On point one, broken IT department: Absolutely right. Most, if not all, of them are. Biggest issue: They don't hire people who know squat about computers or have any idea what standards are but who passed an M$ test to be certified in M$ products. All of a sudden they think they are experts in everything and have to protect the PCs against the "lusers" who actually have to use them. On point two, not an M$ problem: Absolutely wrong. Why would it EVER be acceptable for an OS to take control away from the user WITHOUT WARNING AND WITHOUT RECOURSE, forcing a reboot regardless of what the user was doing or what work the user would lose? This isn't a misconfiguration issue if the very existence of that configuration is broken.
>Anthony:"The only reason that the Restart Later option isnt available is because you are not an administrator, it isnt broken."
In the corporate world, where M$ reigns supreme, and even in the collegiate arena, how many users are admins of their own PCs? IT departments jealously guard this power as their own. For all those users, potentially losing hours of work without being able to do A DAMN THING about it is BROKEN regardless of whether it's a permissions issue or an OS issue. Even if it IS a permissions issue, it is an OS issue simply because such a catastrophic occurrance shouldn't be dependent on something so stupid as permissions.
>SeanP:"Configuring (being able to configure) auto-update to automatically update and reboot the computer without input from the user is seriously broken."
THANK YOU! Nice to see there are some rational people here.
>Fuzzy:"No, it's not really. What makes it not broken is that the user is given a choice, even though Windows recommends auto-updating. What makes it broken is tech people forcing auto-updating."
Yes, it is REALLY. Tech people forcing ANYTHING on the user is taking away choice from the user, and if that prevents the user from damaging the system or losing work product that is good...if it GUARANTEES the user will lose work product, that is BROKEN. The fact that it is even POSSIBLE for the system to be configured such that the user loses such a basic choice is BROKEN.
>James Schend:"This isn't Microsoft's fault, but the fault of whoever set up the policy on the college professor's active directory. You can do the same thing in OS X, if he happened to be using that. Or presumably Linux, although I don't know much about Linux...Just set your clock back a few hours...(Then again, whoever set this policy probably also disabled changing the clock, so maybe that wouldn't work."
I think I've pretty much beat the dead horse on M$ even making it possible to set such a policy as being broken (and challenge anyone to present a coherent valid reason that doing so would not be), and still agree that most IT departments are broken for doing such things just because they can and not because they actually should. However, two points do need to be addressed: First, OSX can be set to autoupdate, but CANNOT be set to autoreboot without the user agreeing to it. The specific message states "The system must be rebooted for updates to take effect" and gives the options of "Restart now" or "Restart later." Those options cannot be disabled. Second, do you seriously think that any IT department diabolical enough to have permissions set so that the user loses complete control of the system would ever allow him to do something so basic as set the date and time? These functions are locked out on almost any corporate system because they are slaved to a network time clock. I'm not even sure that you're correct that it would do any good anyway, but assuming it would work if you could access it the entire problem is access anyway.
Ok, after reading that ~book~ ^^^^ I have to agree.
I think it's been agreed that the basic issue, besides Windows allowing a configuration that simply doesn't make sense, is the IT department.
This happens for one major reason: Education and training, or the lack of it.
IT folks aren't hired because they know computers and networking, they are hired because they know Windows and Windows networking. The two are very, very different. In order to seek such work they don't learn standards and operating systems, they learn Windows. They don't get certified in protocols and interoperability, they get certified in Windows by Microsoft. To be trained for certification, they go to a Microsoft certified trainer. Almost all colleges and universities and technical training programs out there don't do anything beyond train Windows on MS systems because that is what is in demand in the corporate world...because they use MS...because that's what they know...because they use MS...because that's what they know~repeat ad infinitum~
The result? Folks who know nothing beyond Windows who think that because Microsoft thinks they're qualified as "System Engineers" or "System Administrators" on Microsoft products that they actually qualified in ANY other environment (or any heterogenous environment) and know everything there is to know...when they have only the most basic understanding of Solaris or Linux or OSX Server or standards compliance, if that.
So they buy MS and hire more IT folks who know nothing but MS, who buy MS and...well, you get the idea.
~THAT'S~ what's broken about most IT departments.
Ah, reminds me of a story I read earlier this year about windows patching without user consent (see url) that I found after my computer mysteriously restarted itself. Of course, I have no right to complain as I am a high school student in a school where the majority of students misuse or abuse their school-assigned laptops. I don't, but I understand the need to restrict student access to certain features. Although its a hopeless battle, as some of my classmates still managed to install GTA and other games on their computers. I found it both comforting and disconcerting that the automatic patch and restart was not limited to just my school.
Also, having experienced many of the technical gliches of both Windows and OSX on laptops, I would have to say I prefer the mac. (Although I do intend to look into the various *nix systems out there too before I firmly devote myself to any system)
"Yes, it is REALLY. Tech people forcing ANYTHING on the user is taking away choice from the user, and if that prevents the user from damaging the system or losing work product that is good...if it GUARANTEES the user will lose work product, that is BROKEN. The fact that it is even POSSIBLE for the system to be configured such that the user loses such a basic choice is BROKEN."
I see your point, but then it is not simply Windows' fault for allowing ITs to take away the choice, it is also the ITs' fault for taking it away.
Microsoft should set the default to be restart later... 1 of the many reasons I never set Auto update to auto update.. if anything I set it to download updates and allow me to choose when to install them.. but most times I just use Microsoft Update..
did u try going into command prompt (start | run | cmd.exe) and type "shutdown -a" (without quotes) cause i get that kind of stuff but i just have 2 do that!
I've had this happen to me before. Thankfully, I wasn't doing anything at the time, so it turned out okay. Once, though, I was in the middle of writing a report, when it came up (for the first time) with less than 10 seconds left.
A final comment for those who still say, "Not Broken", consider this scenario:
You are in the middle of writing an important document and you run out of coffee. You get up to get a new cup without thinking to save. Just after you leave this window pops up. You get your cup of coffee and get back to your desk just in time to see your computer reboot.
>Hoki: "hy would it EVER be acceptable for an OS to take control away from the user WITHOUT WARNING AND WITHOUT RECOURSE, forcing a reboot regardless of what the user was doing or what work the user would lose?"
I can think of one potentially good reason for doing this: Dumb terminals/kiosks/etc. It's entirely possible to have a computer set up without a keyboard/mouse even attacked, for performing some kind of routine task. you want auto-updates to run, but if Windows is sitting there waiting indefinitely for user input, it kind of nullfies the entire purpose of automating updates to begin with.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with this configuration option. There is, however, something extremely wrong with using it for computers that will be used by actual users to do actual work. The IT Department and Policy is what's broken here. Not a configuration option that has perfectly benign uses.
If GM technology progressed like Microsoft, when you got in a crash it would ask you, "Are you sure?" before deploying the airbag.
This is not broken at all, this is the way it is setup to work, as you can see that is not the standard Windows Update dialog box, it is the one comes up when the computer is configured by the IT department to update itself. The IT department also has the option to allow the user the option to reboot or MAKE them reboot, this is important in a scenero where there is a legal obligation to keep the OS patched. Giving the user 5 minutes to reboot is more than enough, if the user is not at the keyboard, it will simply requre the user to log back on, and they may not even know that the computer ever rebooted. The user will not loose work because all office products have a feature called auto-recovery where if they are closed unexpectedly they will recover where you left off.
Also, keep in mind at the most you would see this box once a week when MS releases updates (and even then, not all updates requre a reboot), but by default if you logoff *not lock* your computer and leave it turned on, this update process would happen at 3:00am and you would never know it happened.
"The user will not loose work because all office products have a feature called auto-recovery where if they are closed unexpectedly they will recover where you left off."
Unless, of course, the interval between AutoRecover saves is long enough that there's still work unsaved, or one is running a program without AutoRecover.
>Johnathan:"I can think of one potentially good reason for doing this: Dumb terminals/kiosks/etc."
Point taken, but why make it the default behavior for a non-admin user? It screws the largest proportion of PC users in order to serve the smallest demographic. That simply does not make sense. Of course, there's a LOT that MS does that doesn't make sense, but books have been written about that.
>Shawn C:"This is not broken at all, this is the way it is setup to work...Giving the user 5 minutes to reboot is more than enough"
Shawn C is apparently one of those Windows experts who knows better than the user how his PC should be controlled and used. I'll even bet he's certified. He probably has an advanced degree. Good for Shawn. Bad for the poor saps who have to depend on him for IT support.
Nanashi's link is very interesting for the sheer volume of comments on this very issue. And the fix they provide? Edit your registry.
There is no reason on God's green earth that any typical user should EVER have to edit the registry. I'm sure Shawn's all over it, but for most users who just want to USE their PCs and expect Auto Update to simply do its thing and ASK PERMISSION to throw out whatever work is in progress before it reboots (and yes, Shawn, while Auto Recover is thankfully built into MS Office apps there are a LOT of folks out there using a LOT of software that doesn't have anything of the sort), that behavior is simply unacceptable.
The reason it's the default is probably because otherwise people do not restart their machines and this reduces the number of infected zombies. I don't like it though... What if you had unsaved changes in, say, Notepad and you walked off to get a sandwich? I hope it waits asking you to save changes instead of just closing Notepad...
All you have to do is open Microsoft Outlook, which prevents the computer from shutting down. For some reason that program completely blocks reboots, even when issued by other Microsoft products.
For those of you complaining it's broken because the IT department set something up that potentially causes a user to lose unsaved data, what about darn near every network server OS that can be rebooted with users still connected? If the document I'm working on is stored on a network drive, how is this different than an admin braodcasting a message of, "Server will be shutting down in 5 minutes" and rebooting it, just as I've stepped out to refill my coffee mug?
Here's how to get rid of it in a nutshell, from an email I sent company-wide:
If you have one of the new machines you may have encountered the dialog box that tells you it wants to reboot your machine (after an automatic update). Your only choices are "Restart Now" or
"Restart Later". If you choose "Restart Later" you'll be bugged again in ten minutes. Worst of all, if you've gone to lunch or in a meeting then the *&$%^@! thing will reboot on you while you're away! It will NOT automatically save your work. Recipe for disaster.
Here's how you can keep it from doing it. At a command prompt type:
net stop wuauserv
That will quiet it down. You can then reboot when it's convenient for YOU. This fix is temporary. The next time you have an automatice update it will start bugging you again. If you want to take advantage of automatic updates but be able to choose when you reboot you need to change a policy setting:
Start -> Run -> gpedit.msc -> Local Computer Policy -> Computer Configuration -> Administrative Templates -> Windows Components -> Windows Update -> No auto-restart for scheduled Automatic Updates installations should be ENABLED.
I remember we had an Email host that was using Exchange and the Windows update decided to stop the mail server service and not restart it. Mail was lost for a couple hours before the problem was figured out..(had to call in because there was no mail coming in for any of our employees which was abnormal..They should remove the countdown from the autorestart at least.. and last time I experienced it, it was like 60 seconds or less and not 5 minutes If I remember correctly.I have also experienced programs that on installing they only give you a restart now option.. not a good option on a server(yes the restart now window had an x button at the top but that just acted as a confirmation for the restart.. luckily I had Symantec System control center open which stopped the restart for long enough to get everybody to save and close files on the server since it was in a partial state of shutdown.
"The only reason that the Restart Later option isnt available is because you are not an administrator, it isnt broken."
----
Personally, that's better than being an administrator on Windows - dangerous things happen. Okay, maybe not as bad as being logged in as root and making a typo with the rm command, but, ehh.
----
I'd say Ubuntu's fine. At least you can order 100 CDs and they come in a box for free. But personally I like Fedora more because it's a bloated distribution, meaning that I don't have to install anything afterward. But since FC5 Final, there is an automatic RPM download frontend...which is better than the previous 'Package Updater'
this is he broken im a system admin of course because i am the only user and i cheked but even when i was off the inter net it shut down randomly. some times windows would give ou a 1 min warning but mostly not. also when it gives you a warning the computer is aufull slow. i cant wait till the windows vista comes out... microsoft says its fixed most of the problombs, if they didn't, ill just refund and get a linux.
Your right, I am certified and I have worked in IT a long time so here is the bottom line:
You use a computer that is YOUR COMPANYS (or Schools) property you have to play by their rules and deal with the policy set forth by the IT department. PERIOD, end of story.
Oh yeah and trust me if the Admins are any good you wont be able to edit your registry or group policy since you are not an admin on your box.
Most of the time, as I stated in my earlier post, there is a way around the situation entirly, if you are not sure what the IT has setup for this, ask them, they are usually not assholes like you all think. In the example I gave you would simply leave your computer logged off and turned on at night when your not using it and you wont run into the problem.
Most printers you find today have internal memory, so they're able to accept print commands and then print from their own internal memory as opposed to requiring Windows to constantly update it. It's likely that, even if Windows had restarted while you were printing, the print job would have completed - at least, to the extent that the printer already had loaded it.
my computer at school does that all the time
the teacher saw that and thought i was downloading stuff and sent me to the principal
i now hate windows, and macs aint to hot either
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once agane first post w00t!
Posted by: asdf at May 9, 2006 12:19 AM