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Previous: Legal convention sign | Main | Next: Halal food cart sign
October 17, 2005 12:03 AM
Broken: Handicapped parking in Shenandoah
Jeremy writes:
In Shenandoah National Park, the Park Service has thoughtfully provided its handicapped visitors the closest parking spot to the lot's sole attraction, a steep trailhead. Not to sound too insensitive, but if you can't cross the parking lot, I fear for you on the trail.
[Politically incorrect but provocative... what does everyone think? -mh]
Following the letter of the law. And, the way things often go, the letter of the law is more important than the spirit.
There are wheel chairs that can go on trails... but to get them out of a van requires space to the side. This handicapped space isn't about closeness to the trail - it's about someone not parking next to you and blocking the side door.
The John Hancock skyscraper in Boston has Braille signs for elevators, toilets etc. on the, ahem, Observation Deck.
You know, there are people other than the wheelchair-bound that can get a handicap tag, such as the blind. Sounds silly too, but think about an excellent seeing-eye dog. Also, people who are mentally handicapped can get a tag. That wheelchair icon is just used as a universal message.
The National Parks Service in the US is pretty well known for integrating accessibility as much as is reasonably possible into all its parks accomodations. This is most likely a set policy to have a disabled parking space as close to the trail as possible. The book Design for Dignity: Studies in Accessibility [my review] discusses this and many other accomodations that the NPS has made.
"This handicapped space isn't about closeness to the trail - it's about someone not parking next to you and blocking the side door."
Well, it's about both, but you raise a good point about space.
"The John Hancock skyscraper in Boston has Braille signs for elevators, toilets etc. on the, ahem, Observation Deck."
This a mistake many people make, assuming that vision-impaired or blind people would not be interested in events that are primarily based on sight.
The Blues singer Jeff Healey still goes to go "see" movies...
(I went to school with him (personal name-drop :) )
Think about this, what is the purpose of handicapped parking spaces?
1. To shorten the distance between the parking spot and the ultimate destination. This is partly for the purpose of...
2. Keeping the handicapped person out of the way of other vehicles as much as possible.
However, if you're going on a TRAIL HIKE, whether it's a blind person, wheelchair-bound, or elderly, why does it matter where you park? You're saving 10-15 feet of walking/wheeling distance for when you begin your 2-mile stroll.
And as for the safety factor, I'd say it's far more treacherous to take a handicapped person through the woods than to walk through a parking lot outside of a national park. There are animals, insects, steep hills, fallen trees, mud.
I could see the point of a handicapped vehicle needing more space, but there are no lines on the ground to denote where a parking spot begins or ends! Sorry, I think the whole country is getting too politically correct.
This instance seems silly, but how would you formulate a policy with which to make a decision for other parks? They simply decide based on the size of the parking lot and the approximate number of park visitors whether that park needs a handicapped space (I assume), regardless of how useful you might think it is.
Trying to evaluate the "natural" accessibility of a parks features is extremely complex and would result in something *truly broken*-- absence of a parking space (or ramp or...) where it actually was *needed*.
"The John Hancock skyscraper in Boston has Braille signs for elevators, toilets etc. on the, ahem, Observation Deck."
So? You assume that a blind individual wouldn't find themselves on the observation deck for reasons other than wanting to look out the windows. What about a blind person who is accompanying their family?
Also, the signs in the entire building are probably standardized to include braille on them. Should they have gone out and ordered special signs that don't have braille on them just for the floor they don;t expect the blind to use? That would have been more costly than simply using the same signs throughout the building.
What about the blind parent with a seeing child in tow? They must expect their (perhpas too young to read) child to suffer as a result of their disability? Or that their lot in life is to be their guide and translator?
Most folks welcome the braille, if only because it is inclusive. Additionally, most signs don't just say "There's an important building". They also include "and here's why..."
I am glad to see that the balance of opinion here is on the side of accommodation for disabled folks, even when their use of the accommodation is improbable. And kudos to Hag, gary and nyackjazz for noting the various categories of disabled folks and caregivers who also benefit from accommodations. Let me tell you, the caregivers have plenty to deal with, it's nice when discrimination occasionally errs on the side of "too much" accommodation.
I took my family to Disneyland this summer. Our autistic son, age 6, did OK for a day and a half, but in line for the "Storybook Lane" boat ride he had a meltdown related to standing in yet another crowded place for a long time. We went to Town Hall, they asked us some polite questions and then gave us a Disability Pass. That allowed us to stand by an uncrowded, special entrance at most rides (marked by, of course, a wheelchair). The staff would see us waiting, coordinate for a minute or two, then get us onto the ride without meltdowns. We occasionally got odd looks from those in the "regular" lines (but no more than we get anyway, when son is so excited that he is dancing around flapping his hands).
Not the drive-up ATM argument AGAIN.
*sigh* The braille on drive-up ATMs DOES make sense, and you know it.
1. What if a blind person in the rear driver's seat of a car would like to use the ATM?
2. What if a blind person walks up to the ATM? (have seen it happen!)
3. Why would a bank spend extra money to special-order a non-Braille ATM just for their drive-through?!?
Come on, people, THINK before you reply.
This is pretty stupid. We all put on our Wheelchair Snow Tires before coming, right everybody? Right? How much traction is a wheelchair, for that matter any non-ATV, supposed to get on what appears to be a steep dirt footpath? And for the matter of "but if you can't cross the parking lot, I fear for you on the trail.", how is that Politically Incorrect? Forgive me, but i agree with that statement. If the 'differently abled' person is in their everyday smooth-tired chair, they won't have any grip at all, as i have already said.
I think that the placement of a disbled spot near a trail that the author describes as "steep" is cause for understandable confusion. However, i think that placing a parking space there cetainly beats the alternative of having few parking spots on easily accessible trails.
One question for the poster: what was the elevation gain like? because I myself have seen people in wheel chairs going up grades of 20% (meaning that the elevation goes up one foot for every five feet horizontally) with only mild strain. People in wheel chairs should not be underestimated. And don't underestimate blind people with canes. They always know where you are, even if you think you are silent.
So there!
Why is everybody assuming they know what handicapped people are capable of - or interested in - in terms of terrain, navigation, reading or sightseeing?
The WHOLE POINT of an accessible society is that it provides the disabled THE SAME CHOICES as anyone else. You know, removing barriers? Letting people make their OWN choices instead of being them for them made by policy-makers?
Who are any of you to decide that it's stupid to provide handicapped people with accessibility to a hiking trail?
Grr.
Our government has elevated the disabled to a special super class of citizens with special rights and benefits, relegating the rest of us to the back of the bus, so to speak. And tortured explanations of how someone impaired just might be able to access something normal people do are absurd as well. At least there's no Braille on my camera.
What's broken in this country is that too many people still say "handicapped". This is an insult to those in wheelchairs, who are deaf, blind, etc.
The ADA states they are "wheelchair accessible bathrooms" or "wheelchair accessible parking lots" or "wheelchair accessible" this or that.
Handicap came from years ago when the people with disabilities were forced to beg for money on the streets, cap in hand, hence the term, "handicap".
I used to work in a field where I assisted people with disabilities and I don't know one person who does have a disability who likes being called "handicapped." And it's not "physically challenged" either.
In this day and age of PC b.s. going overboard, I understand that people don't want to hear it but for this particular issue, I'm in agreement with the ADA and hope that others in this country will learn to use "people with disabilities" and other terms mentioned above.
Rant away, but get your facts straight. Handicap derives from an expression used in a "game in which forfeits were held in a cap," according to the American Heritage Dictionary of the English language. Folk etymology, while cute and amusing, only undermines your credibility.
Not broken.
The argument that people in prime health need that extra 6 feet of space so they don't have to walk as far is absurd.
Dan says that "tortured explanations of how someone impaired just might be able to access something normal people do are absurd."
Normal people? NORMAL people???
Dan, you seem to have some impairment in your thought processes. Perhaps you could qualify for a special parking placard.
I invite everyone to take a look at the documentary Murderball. I would put money on some of those guys taking this trail. If they can get their chairs out of their vans.
Years ago, when a roller skaking rink opened near me I thought it "odd" that the restrooms and parking lot were handicapped accessible. Now that I use a wheelchair I know that if I would go there with friends or take someone(a child) there, I would be able to easily use the restroom if needed. A while ago I went to a K-mart when it was near closing time, I figured it would be unlikely that someone would park next to me so I used a regular parking spot. sure enough, when I came out there was a van parked almost too close to my driver side for me to get into my car. In a mostly empty parking lot.
I'm not blind but I AM a caregiver, full time, for my blind mom. She has a "handicapped" tag but of course she doesn't drive. I do. And I only use the tag when she's with me. It makes it so much easier for her to walk from a handicapped spot to an entrance. She has a lot less dangerous ground to cover. As for space, extra space around a car for those with disabilities is essential. Even Mom, sans wheelchair, needs to get her cane out the door first, as well as herself, her purse, etc. And she could still walk a trail if not too rugged - after all she's nearing 80.
Anyway, it's not broken, it just looks silly on the surface. But the initial impression of silliness is a reflection of our own subconcious or not thoughts of those with disabilities. And parking tags haven't created a super class, you just don't like to see anyone getting something you aren't. With all the inconveniences and downright tradegies that come with any sort of disability, letting folks park a bit closer is the very least we can do.
Can we please accept the fact that there are some things handicapped people can't do? I cannot see infrared radiation. I can't. Neither can a deaf man hear. Yes, i know they have ultra-developed such-and-such blah blah blah but that doesn't mean they can hear.
------
Please, Faolan, how is people with disabilities any better than handicapped? Isn't 'disabled' basically the same thing as handicapped, except worse? Whereas 'handicapped' means you have an impairment in whatever field, disabled means you have no chance at all. How is that more sensitive?
The one that got me was when I got a ticket for parking "in" a handicapped spot at the mall. It was Christmas (with the crowd) and I have a pretty heavy duty SUV (which I actually SUV with). So I parked on one of the piles of show. You could not have used this parking spot unless you had big tires and 4x4. You also had to climb down about 3 foot of snow to get to the parking lot. Heck it was not even marked anymore because the signs were covered. Certainly anyone who could use the parking spot should not qualify for handicapped parking. But the had to ticket people.
I also have had them yell at me for using these spots for drop off and pickup. I never do this if I am taking the last one, but I figured that if I am staying with the car, and just pulling in for a minute or two to load or unload family then moving on to park that this show be permitted, but the parking nitwits don't seem to think so.
OK Bob, it is now your job to visit every one of the 400 National Parks in the US and determine an Official Wheelchair Tire Rating (OWTR) for each one.
When you're done with that, start on the Historic Places, Historic Landmarks, and National Historic Landmarks, and then you can start on the state parks.
I'm just trying to point out that while one instance -- this one -- may seem broken, you cannot reasonably generalize a national policy for handicapped parking for all parks based on some kind of analysis of the specific terrain at each park. It has to be broadly based on visitors, available parking space, and maybe requests from visitors.
I'm wondering how close the handicapped parking spot is to the *bathroom* (if any), not the trailhead.
First off, these spots are legally termed "accessible parking spaces." Now, I've called them "handicapped spots" and even "gimp spots" in my younger days. Now, before everyone freaks out, I am 40 years old and have had cerebral palsy my entire life. I have never walked. Many of us in wheelchairs use terms like "gimp" and even "crip." To us, it's turning the original pejorative meaning of those terms back on themselves and making them powerful, positive. (Many African Americans and other minority groups do similar things with archaic derogatory racial terms.) Anyway, it's certainly not "handicapped spots."
These spots serve folks with many less obvious disabilities such as asthma, etc. There's no reason these folks could not access the trail; they may just take many breaks.
There are many, many models of electric and manual wheelchairs and scooters that can handle trails such as this. The accessible parking being located near the trail entrance allows someone to get their mobility device to the trail and have the CHOICE of using it or not.
It's all about CHOICE, people. No one has any right to assume what I can or cannot do. Nor can anyone decide for me what's best for me in regards to my mobility impairment. Until your butt is in the chair or your eyes are blinded, or your hearing goes away, or whatever, shut up about our abilities or disabilities. I may not roller skate, but that business should be accessible in case I choose to go there with my kids, friends, etc. I should not have to say to my son (yes, we gimps do get married and make babies), "Sorry, Daddy can't take you to the skating party because his scooter can't go up the steps."
In the 1950s, it was perfectly legal to mark a business or restroom as "whites only." It was wrong and the laws were changed. In 2005, it's perfectly legal to have a sign that says "Able Bodied Only." It's just that the sign is in the form of a set of stairs and I see them every day. Gee, I sure feel like I've been elevated to a special super class of citizen every time I see those stairs or someone stands in front of me at a ballgame or concert, Dan.
Last, whatever terms you use remember it's "people first" language. I am a PERSON, not a condition. "People with disabilities" or "customer who uses a wheelchair" are two types of generally accessible ways to refer to people like me. For another example, I would refer to people like our friend Dan as a "person with narrow mindedness and selfishness."
I am now getting off of my wheelchair accessible soap box, now. Thank you.
All right Reed! I'll start on the OWTR project straightaway. I'll need a twelve million dollar federal budget, and exclusive use of several helicopters, but that's nothing compared to the value of a Zagat's for handicapped facilities!
Why do people keep hammering on the whole wheelchair point? You can get a special parking placard for numerous other reasons, including, but not wholly limited to:
Ambulatory disabilities (not necessarily wheelchair-bound)
Visual imparity (discussed at length, I know)
Cardiovascular conditions
Chronic respiratory ailments
Orthopedic conditions
Persistent oxygen reliance (not ordinary air)
Arthritic or neurological impairments
So who says someone with such a condition can't visit the park along with family and friends? Someone with arthritis can't go and explore a little? Surely it's not so steep that they'll need grappling hooks to get back to the car? Go tell my little tiny 84 year-old grandma who has arthritis in her knees, and still goes a couple of times every year to various hiking trails all over the place; that she isn't necessarily entitled to go, because she gets to park in the handicapped spot. She'll whoop you.
Bob wrote:
Read my post. Traction is the issue here. Smooth tires+ Steep+ Dirt= No traction.
Before pontificating, you might want to do a little research:
http://www.ottobock.com/en/superfour
You think the parking space is insane? See http://www.lasvegastribune.com/20050805/editorials6.html -- search for "Galehead."
Really what's broken here is the government... but what else is new.
Having been in lots of the parking areas for Trails in Shenandoah, it is clear that they are following the letter of the law even when it is stupid. There is actually one explicitly handicapped accessible trail. It follows the same rule of 1 handicapped spot per n non-handicapped spots where here it would have actually made sense to have several spots since the whole thing was done explicitly for the handicapped.
Faolan, you are indeed wrong about the etymology of "handicap." Just how would "cap in hand" morph to "hand in cap" anyway?
"Handicap" is considered offensive for the same reason as "fat": it has negative connotations. Eventually, today's ostensibly neutral or positive terms will be deemed offensive and outdated as well.
There are all sorts of disabilities, not just those requiring wheel chairs. An acquaintence has a muscular degenerative disease that "merits" her a blue space. Some days she can get around quite well and others are a chore.
While someone in a wheelchair might have difficulty negotiating a trail, other disabled folks might do quite well.
There's nothing broken about giving someone a chance at a little exercise.
Anyone see that series about the disabled group trekking across Nicaragua? Man, that looks like a hellish trip.
Holy cow. You'd think some of the posters here had never left the house.
What's so impossible about taking the visiting family up a skyscraper and NOT leaving your blind cousin behind? Perhaps they'd even get a kick out of feeling the wind in their hair? What's that? You need the bathroom? Well it's over there, have some dignity and go by yourself.
And what on Earth is wrong with braille on ATMs? I'm pretty sure blind people need money. If you got stuff for free everyone would be doing it.
I didn't think the posting was "politically incorrect", its an interesting point (and we're all more enlightened as a result), but some of the posts that followed are pure moronic. Very educational.
When I need a wheelchair to get about, easily the most annoying thing will be the prejudice and thoughtlessness of other people. Steps are nothing in comparison.
Bob, unfortunately nobody in congress cares that much about the NPS. Well, maybe about the NP in their home state if it will bring in 12 million dollars (don't you think that's a bit low ;) ! We just need to infiltrate some disability rights lobbies and we'll be set...
Drive-up ATMs have Braille on them for the simple reason that they come off the exact same manufacturing line as walk-up ATMs. They're the same product, put in different places.
However, making ATMs with Braille on them is still stupid, since blind people can't read the screen, which is a lot more important than the buttons.
Blind people can't read the screen, but there are other ways to use an ATM - such as audio listening devices. Duh.
I don't really like using handicapped spots, I sometimes feel embarrassed about being a special needs person, but when you see back up lights and car bumpers coming at you at eye level and you don't know if the drivers see you (and you can't jump out of the way with a wheelchair) then I like the handicapped spots.
To Ray. I think whoever left the pile of snow in that spot should have gotten the ticket. Then made to remove it.
P.S. I would like to visit those trails.
"The John Hancock skyscraper in Boston"
Don't you mean the John Hancock center in Chicago?
Posted by: was I suppose to put my name here?
Surprise! The same insurance company can build a building in a different city and name it after themselves, too! See
details.
Marc- Before pontificating, you may want to read my post. "SMOOTH TIRES+ steep+ dirt =no traction." (caps added) Clearly none of the chairs you linked to had anything resembling smooth tires. Most wheelchairs I have seen have smooth tires, which would not be able to grip steep loose dirt trails. Obviously there will be ATV/wheelchairs, but they do not fall under the realm of smooth tires, now do they? Think before you say, Marc.
dan is right though. we all have to accept that there are some places that wheelchair-bound people cannot go. i am not saying this to be mean or anything, but i AM disabled, emotionally, socially, and somewhat mentally. i have Ausperger's Syndrome, have had it all my life, but never got special treatment. i cannot handle certain things, including driving (too slow of a reaction time), and i also know that there are places and things i'll never be able to go to or do. and i have to accept that, cause they will not make special arrangements just for me.
i would like to go to a concert and participate in a mosh pit, but i know i never will because that would be too many people too close to me and i would have a breakdown. there are just things some people can't do. life is not fair.
dan is right though. we all have to accept that there are some places that wheelchair-bound people cannot go. i am not saying this to be mean or anything, but i AM disabled, emotionally, socially, and somewhat mentally. i have Ausperger's Syndrome, have had it all my life, but never got special treatment. i cannot handle certain things, including driving (too slow of a reaction time), and i also know that there are places and things i'll never be able to go to or do. and i have to accept that, cause they will not make special arrangements just for me.
i would like to go to a concert and participate in a mosh pit, but i know i never will because that would be too many people too close to me and i would have a breakdown. there are just things some people can't do. life is not fair.
Kevin: However, making ATMs with Braille on them is still stupid, since blind people can't read the screen, which is a lot more important than the buttons.
Blind people CAN read the screen. The text on the screen is big enough that alot of blind people can actually make it out. The text on the buttons however is not or its rubbed off...hence the braille.
Interlard:
Holy cow. You'd think some of the posters here had never left the house.
What's so impossible about taking the visiting family up a skyscraper and NOT leaving your blind cousin behind? Perhaps they'd even get a kick out of feeling the wind in their hair? What's that? You need the bathroom? Well it's over there, have some dignity and go by yourself.
*****
I have visited several skyscrapers/sight-seeing trips with my family. Not once have they said, "Oh Robert's blind...he won't want to come with us!" I cannot stand people that think the blind are helpless. Thanks for having some common sence.
Bob:
This is pretty stupid. We all put on our Wheelchair Snow Tires before coming, right everybody? Right? How much traction is a wheelchair, for that matter any non-ATV, supposed to get on what appears to be a steep dirt footpath? And for the matter of "but if you can't cross the parking lot, I fear for you on the trail.", how is that Politically Incorrect? Forgive me, but i agree with that statement. If the 'differently abled' person is in their everyday smooth-tired chair, they won't have any grip at all, as i have already said.
...
Marc- Before pontificating, you may want to read my post. "SMOOTH TIRES+ steep+ dirt =no traction." (caps added) Clearly none of the chairs you linked to had anything resembling smooth tires. Most wheelchairs I have seen have smooth tires, which would not be able to grip steep loose dirt trails. Obviously there will be ATV/wheelchairs, but they do not fall under the realm of smooth tires, now do they? Think before you say, Marc.
XXXX
Bob...have you ever used a wheelchair? Do you know how many wheelchair users actually have the type of chairs listed (that do NOT have smooth tires). ALL MY FRIENDS HAVE "OFF ROAD" WHEEL CHAIRS. I have one as well (http://www.sitdownsports.com/offroad/offroadmain.html) (and I do not use a wheelchair regularly). Most "common" wheelchairs have more traction then you'd think. Handicapped people do not use the smoothwheeled hospital wheelchairs!!!
Get a Clue!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
NMA:
dan is right though. we all have to accept that there are some places that wheelchair-bound people cannot go. i am not saying this to be mean or anything, but i AM disabled, emotionally, socially, and somewhat mentally. i have Ausperger's Syndrome, have had it all my life, but never got special treatment. i cannot handle certain things, including driving (too slow of a reaction time), and i also know that there are places and things i'll never be able to go to or do. and i have to accept that, cause they will not make special arrangements just for me.
i would like to go to a concert and participate in a mosh pit, but i know i never will because that would be too many people too close to me and i would have a breakdown. there are just things some people can't do. life is not fair.
XXXX
No...you do not go to a mosh-pit concert because YOU WOULD NOT ENJOY IT. There are no physical barriers that are stopping you.
I, on the other hand, would enjoy seeing "what's out there" in the national parks. It is not unreasonable to expect certain reasonable accomedations.
GAD! You people are dumb!
Don't you see the wheelchair parking sign?!?
OBVIOUSLY it means: "Park your wheelchair here. Crawl or have somebody drag you to the the start of the steep path. Roll down path"
I would recommend elbow & knee pads (or Full Body Armor) before doing this however :)
Comments on this entry are closed
Previous: Legal convention sign | Main | Next: Halal food cart sign
they probly just use it as employee parking.
Posted by: gmangw at October 17, 2005 12:30 AM