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A project to make businesses more aware of their customer experience, and how to fix it. By Mark Hurst. |
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Previous: Apple Mail filter interface | Main | Next: Inconsistency in menu items
March 28, 2005 12:17 AM
Broken: Fedex.com country list
Sarah Kanz writes:
I went to the FedEx website to get an estimate on sending a package to Scotland. Apparently they don't deliver to Scotland. I finally selected United Kingdom--a wild guess on my part--and got my quote.
By contrast, UPS.com lists Scotland by name. Their site isn't perfect either (far from it), but I enjoy doing business with UPS because they try to make it easy for me.
Excuse me, but Scotland is a country by itself and always has been. Just as Wales is. Yes it is part of the UK, but it is also a country. No question about it - try suggesting to a Scotsman that it is not a country....
Scotland is NOT a country in its own right, independent of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (to quote from the title page of my BRITISH passport. Introduce me to someone with a specifically Scottish passport and I might be convinced otherwise.
I was born in Wales and regard myself as Welsh, though I've previously lived in Scotland and have been in England for 13 years, but as my passport says, my legal status is 'British Citizen'.
There's a difference between cultural identity (Scottish, Catalan, Welsh, Manx, etc.) and full-on legal nationhood, with separate heads of state, passports, armed forces, UN seats, etc.
It's the UK that's broken. Here in Sheffield I have a choice between Great Britain, England and the United Kingdom: three different geographical regions, all of which I'm in, and all of which can accurately be called a "country".
Interface designers shouldn't have to know about the bizarre affectations of every nation-state on the planet just to get a page like this set up.
Alright let me get this straight: they list Rwanda, and Quatar but not Scotland? And yes scottland is it's own coutry. Most definantly broken.
Whether Scotland is legally recognized independent country is irrelevant. What is relevant is usability, and customer behaviour. There is likely a large enough portion of the customer base that thinks Scotland is a country to include it as an alias for the U.K.
You folks who keep insisting that Scotland is a country -- cite a source. Let's try some, shall we?
Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition: "Scotland -- division of the United Kingdom ... " Columbia Desk Reference, Second Edition: "Scotland -- political division of the United Kingdom ... " World Almanac and Book of Facts: "Scotland -- a kingdom now united with England and Wales in Great Britain ..."
The CIA Factbook doesn't list Scotland separately in its "Select a Country or Location" dropdown, either http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html
although paradoxically does say in the intro to U.K. government, "Great Britain includes the countries of England, Scotland, and Wales." Further into the text, though, it agrees with the sources cited above: "(I)n another Act of Union in 1707, England and Scotland agreed to permanently join as Great Britain ..."
Short answer: Scotland has not been an independent nation for 298 years.
Scotland is one of the four constituent nations of the United Kingdom. It has its own domestic parliament, but relies upon the UK Parliament for international affairs. It has its own national capital, and when you send a letter to Scotland, you would write Scotland on the outside in the country area.
Therefore, politics aside, most people (and nations) consider Scotland a country or nation. Hence, it should be in a country/nation dropdown on a package delivery site.
Broken.
Just to throw something else into the mix...
This happened in soccer's world cup qualifying over the weekend:
Italy 2-0 Scotland
England 4-0 Northern Ireland
In the Olympics we compete as "Great Britain" (actually short for The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) which includes England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales.
Speaking as someone who grew up there, I think the general public of the UK would say that each of the four are "countries", and that the UK itself can also be thought of as a country, and as a collection of countries. The legal definitions are now different, but in the minds of end-users, there are lots of different ways to say the same thing (as already pointed out).
If it is easy to list "England" as a country on a drop-down list, and then redirect that choice to "UK", what would be the harm? I would guess that it might be tough to do with some already established systems, however.
Broken, but not because Scotland is a country. I've recently had reason to send a number of letters and packages to the Falkland Islands -- and I can assure you that if I sent them to "Stanley FIQQ, United Kingdom", that would do no delivery person any good at all. I'm in New York: I want my package to the Falklands to go south, to Chile and thence to Stanley -- not to go east, to London, which is where the UK traffic generally goes. Now it might be that all British mail has to go via London. On the other hand, it might be that from certain locations, Scottish mail would go to Glasgow (for instance) instead. So if you want to send a package to Scotland, it does make some sense to write Scotland on it. Although given the ignorance of many countries' post office clerks, I'd normally write "Scotland, United Kingdom" just to make sure.
The idea of a "country" is a bit nebulous in any case. What do you do with Puerto Rico? It's not a fully independent country, but is not fully part of the United States either. And what about Taiwan which exists in reality as an independent country without official recognition? These political issues are irrelevant to somebody trying to send a package by Fedex? They just want to get their package to the destination!
I've seen these types of debates carried on as part of my work, and the people involved always loose site of the main goal -- usability.
It's best to think of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as states, with, to give it its full title, The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, being the country. In the same vein, Texas, Ohio, Utah etc. are all states in the United States of America.
The Republic of Ireland, is, however, a separate country.
It's confusing, but that's British pedantry for you... :)
What is it with you people and always blamming the user? If Fed-Ex is losing customers to UPS, then CHANGE YOUR SITE!
What is broken is indeed the terminology. In English, 'country' (when not used in the sense of 'the country', i.e. the sticks) generally is a synonym for 'nation-state'. Scotland, Wales, and England are always referred to as 'countries', but they are not independent nation-states in the same way that, say, France is.
Adding England, Scotland, and Wales to the list separately (and making them synonymous with 'UK' as that is how FedEx thinks of them) would improve usability somewhat, but it would also make the list a tiny bit longer. Where do you draw the line? The Universal Postal Union considers the UK an atomic entity, which is probably how FedEx arrived at their decision.
And Puerto Rico is a U.S. territory, i.e. part of the United States but not a state. What's broken there is the perception of Puerto Rico. People born in there are United States citizens every bit as much as people born in Nebraska. PR has no representation in Congress, and people there don't vote in presidential elections; but then they don't pay federal income tax, either.
You address things to places in Puerto Rico (and Guam, American Samoa, and the U.S. Virgin Islands) just as you would to anywhere else in the United States:
123 Calle 1
San Juan, PR 00901
USA
> How come the list doesn't show "Texas, Republic of"?
Heh! Here in Texas that would definitely get a guffaw and probably some repeat business from the sheer novelty of the recognition.
Which is precisely why I have to agree with the submitter that regardless of legal definition, it certainly wouldn't hurt anything and may help quite a bit to include such distinctions. As long as a little discretion is used to avoid packing the list with so many useless (or useful to so few as to be considered useless) distinctions as to affect its usability (and unfortunately I think Republic of Texas would fall into that category, although Scotland would not) it would help some users.
Remember them, the users? Not everybody thinks alike. It is why some back-of-book indexes are so much more useful than others: Multiple terms point to the same place so that different readers with different needs and different concepts can still all find the same relevant information. Site design should be done with the same goal in mind. Don't force everyone to think the way you do to use your site (or software, or product, etc). Make it as open and usable to as many different styles, cultures, and behaviors as possible and you can sell it or through it to as many people as possible.
And that's what it is all about, right?
Erich, I couldn't have said it better myself. (And if I tried, my post would have been twice as long as yours!)
Fedex probably designed the list based on standard ISO recognition of countrys, and since Scotland is not recognized as an independent nation-state, but rather part of the UK, it is there considered UK. This is not uncommon in international transportation, and should not be considered broken.
"This is not uncommon in international transportation, and should not be considered broken."
But your average consumer using the Fedex web site isn't in the international shipping industry. The interface design needs to take into consideration the audience using the web site.
Which would be persons at least minimally involved/aware of international standards; one company / one website / one interface cannot be all things to all people, and cannot possibly take in to account all the variations, minor or substantial, that exist in the world of international shipping. If one person has a minor issue, unfortunate yes, but broken no. If this person has that much of an issue, then he/she really should consider an alternate carrier **or** avoid the website and call the customer service line.
Also, he/she could drop a line to Fedex's webmaster to inform them of the issue and see if that resolves the situation!
this -is- broken. it may be true that scotland is not technically a separate country, but it should be included on the list.
i have to agree with chris, in that
-"If it is easy to list "England" as a country on a drop-down list, and then redirect that choice to "UK", what would be the harm?"
i doubt that it would be that hard to add another link to the uk, and making he list longer wouldn't be too much of a problem.
this -is- broken. it may be true that scotland is not technically a separate country, but it should be included on the list.
i have to agree with chris, in that
-"If it is easy to list "England" as a country on a drop-down list, and then redirect that choice to "UK", what would be the harm?"
i doubt that it would be that hard to add another link to the uk, and making he list longer wouldn't be too much of a problem.
>> FLyingASHtrays wrote: "one company / one website / one interface cannot be all things to all people..."
Obviously, but a good interface or user experience should be clear to the majority of its users. I would venture, as most posters here seem to agree, that the majority of FedEx.com users would think of Scotland as a country, and England as a country, and Ireland as a country. If they didn't find them in a pulldown, they would be perplexed for a bit.
A tiny bit of redundancy here, and a bending of the term "country," is a tiny price to pay for a better user experience.
Imagine if you walked into a FedEx depot and said, "I want to send this package to Scotland" and the clerk just looked blank and said, "We can't do that." And you said, "Why?" and they said, "There's no such country." And you then said, "Sure there is, it's north of England, in the United Kingdom" and they said, "Oh, now that you've said the words 'United Kingdom' I can send your package to Scotland for you."
This is what their website is doing, and you can hardly call it good customer service.
Yes, the customer that thinks that Scotland is a country may be technically "wrong", at least according to "standard ISO recognition of countries" -- but it's FedEx's business to help their customers get their packages where they want them to go. Turning customers away just because they're not up on their geographical trivia is not good business sense, let alone good customer relations.
As odd as it may be to briong this up here, the post office seems to show this right. Where I live, the city has been a large growing metropolis for a long time (decades). It has grown with amalgamation of formerly outlyingh towns that have been incorporated as the city expands. Yet the post office still manages to get the mail delivered to these places with the old addressing, even if the postal code is missing.
It doesn't matter what Scotland *is*, what matters in usable software is what the customer expects. Most of the world recognizes Scotland as a destination unto itself, *functionally equivalent* to a country.
As a number of people have mentioned, we need to go back to the user experience, and what a *reasonable* person would expect.
Often it is useful to consult an universally accepted expert (a bit like consulting webster's to settle an argument over how to spell something).
Two useful guides spring up:
UN: Scotland is not a country (no seat at UN)
FIFA : Scotland is a country (have a national football team that competes for the World Cup (well maybe not this time))
Given that billions of people watch the World Cup Final, packing stadia for even the qualifying stages, and about 16 would watch a UN debate (even pre-war, let's be realistic), one has to say that the answer is Scotland is a country, FedEx is broken, UPS is right.
QED
;-)
The UK is definitely broken if they create so much confusion about a country name. Can we say it's an identity crisis?
What about Holland vs. The Netherlands? Holland is a part of the Netherlands but many Dutchmen like to call their country Holland. The French call the Netherlands; "des Pays Bas" which means “the low lands”. Sometimes the Netherlands is included in the Benelux which stands for Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg. Is the pull down broken then? If that's a fact, lots of pull down’s are broken. By the way: The Kingdom of the Netherlands is something else too, especially when you're booking a vacation. And yes, Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, or Holland, whatever you prefer.
I agree Scotland should be listed since it is a country with its own flag and Parliament. If you don't list Scotland, then you should not list Germany or France since they are merely states within the EU.
That said, what is truly broken from a UI standpoint is something that poor UI designers are too blind to see because they are all so incompetant as to do this themselves: no 1-dimensional list box should have over 100 entries. To do so shows a complete ignorance of basic usability concepts.
Hi folk,
You may wish to have a look at the Canada Post country list, the S portion of which is available at...
http://canadapost.ca/business/tools/pg/manual/h01-e.asp?letter=S
Here is a short sample...
SAINT CHRISTOPHER (ST KITTS) AND NEVIS
SAIPAN (included in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)
SAMOA
SAN MARINO (included in ITALY)
SAND ISLAND (included in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)
SANTA CRUZ ISLANDS (included in SOLOMON ISLANDS)
SAO TOME AND PRINCIPE
SARAWAK (included in MALAYSIA)
SARDINIA (included in ITALY)
SAUDI ARABIA, KINGDOM OF
SAVAGE ISLAND (included in NEW ZEALAND)
SAVAII (included in SAMOA)
SCOTLAND (included in GREAT BRITAIN)
SENEGAL
SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO
SEYCHELLES
SHIKOKU (included in JAPAN)
SHORTLAND ISLAND (included in SOLOMON ISLANDS)
SICILY (included in ITALY)
I like the way they use common names, then tell us what country these common named areas are part of. But of course, this will, as others have pointed out, produce a VERY long list - much too long for a drop-down.
Rob
When discussing Scotland - I’ve recently been taught to call it either Scotland (which is best for Scots) or the Brittish Isles, never the United Kingdom - the reason being that UK includes Northern Ireland, and it avoids arguments over whether the UK actually own it.
This is the most sorry bunch of people that hang out on the net that are totally bored and have nothing else to do.. Get a life people!
Imagining people telling you something over the counter like I don’t know Scotland but as soon as you mention UK they would not is a little silly but there are some among us that can stand up to truths.
That is Scotland is part of Great Britain and what is also known UK. This is not a unique case and there for stop your crying!
It’s not broken.
> Link: "That is Scotland is part of Great Britain and what is also known UK. This is not a unique case and there for stop your crying!
It’s not broken."
Your grammar is broken. Your logic is broken. Your link is broken.
YOU
ARE
BROKEN
I viewed the site myself. The first option given is "Start by selecting your location". They *should* be perfectly politically correct and not offend anyone. If a number of people in Scotland may be upset by reminding them they are not an independent entity I say Scotland should be listed separately.
This may be a little overboard and it may be a little cost a little, but I think they should take a poll of everyone in every geographic region that they serve asking both "What country do you live in?" and "What are some other names for your country that do not offend you?". :)
ps I never find it annoying to find my state's name in a drop down list, even though it never shows in the first view, because I know that I can type the first letter of the name on the keyboard and it jumps me to that part of the alphabetical list.
Keep on Speaking Up,
JLC
Following up Michael McWatters - people do write SCOTLAND on envelopes, but they're technically wrong to do so. For example, here's a correct address, as verified with Royal Mail [the UK postal service]:
The Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh
EH99 1SP
UNITED KINGDOM
There is a significant separatist movement in Cornwall - do we include that on the list? What about the People's Republic of South Yorkshire?
A list that satisfied everyone's idea of their country would be so long as to be completely unusable, and anything less [beyond the official names] would unfairly discriminate against users in most of the world.
If everyone stuck to the international standards, we'd all know where to look in dropdown lists.
My family owns two dogs, one of Scottish origin (Gordon Setter) and one of English origin (Jack Russel Terrier) and I can testify that those two are worlds apart.
Mac: (Your grammar is broken.) wow is that the best you can do? is pick on Grammar?! (Your logic is broken.) Logic is perfectly fine (Your link is broken.) So far that’s debatable and its not broken.
YOU ARE BROKEN = lol Ever hear of Devolution? if not you should and then maybe you realize that is is you who are broken..lol
And the logic of this confused Scott (I agree Scotland should be listed since it is a country with its own flag and Parliament. If you don't list Scotland, then you should not list Germany or France since they are merely states within the EU)
This is a total joke , you people are a joke. Get a life and stop crying over your keyboards about things that do not affect your lives. Go buy flowers for your wife , spend time with your kids, get a better hobby!!!
"What country do you live in?" and "What are some other names for your country that do not offend you?". :) HAHAHAHAHAHAH what a Idiot!
I carefully read the message posted by Rob about the list used by Canada Post.
Yes, the list is very detailed but it's wrong.
Sardinia and Sicily are regions that belong to the italian republic, while San Marino is an indipendent republic. Italy is all around the Republic of San Marino, but San Marino isn't included in Italy.
P.S.
Scotland is not an indipendent state.
J. Scott, you're wrong. Germany and France are indipendent nations. The EU laws have to be approved by the national parliaments to be valid.
I'm sorry, this is a pretty good submission, but it's not THAT special... why, if the guy claims he gets hundreds of submissions per week, does he choose THIS one???
I agree with "name" (first poster). Scotland is not a country in the international sense of word.
So, blame yourself.
As a Brit living in the US, I find this whole discussion rather ironic. I cannot count the number of times that people in the US (including politicians and the media) refer to the UK as "England" as if the two were synonymous.
>> Link responds: "This is a total joke , you people are a joke. Get a life and stop crying over your keyboards about things that do not affect your lives. Go buy flowers for your wife , spend time with your kids, get a better hobby!!!"
Um, Link, let me see if I understand you: writing on this post to improve user experiences is a wasted life.
So, what are you doing here? At least we're trying to do something constructive, to share ideas and exchange opinions.
You are here to attack those who want to do something good. Would you say that was more of a waste of time? So, go buy your wife some flowers, spend time with your kids, and get a better hobby. Oh, and maybe pick up a grammar book or two.
I find it EXTREMELY PATHETIC that 52 messages have been WASTED discussing wether or not this is broken!!! Why don't you guys hold a convention, for crying out loud!!!
Comments on this entry are closed
Previous: Apple Mail filter interface | Main | Next: Inconsistency in menu items
I'm not sure what the poster believes is broken here. Scotland is often not considered a country by itself, but part of the United Kingdom.
However, blaming your own lack of knowledge on FedEx is broken.
Posted by: name at March 28, 2005 02:07 AM