Interview: David Greenberger - listening with respect

Sep 9, 2004

The key to any customer-centered effort is to respect the customer. Whatever the project may be - tests, interviews, a redesign, a new strategy - in order to be truly customer-centered, the work must be infused with a basic respect for the people being served.

It's hard to create respect out of a strict process. There's no checklist, or script, or set of guidelines that can dictate true respect of the user. Respect is a stance, an attitude, that the practitioner can choose (or not) to adopt.

One way to encourage this stance, I think, is to show examples of it in action - even (or especially) if it's outside the narrow specialty of the practitioner. This is a major focus of my Gel conference: showing the attitude and discipline of other practitioners of good experience, no matter how diverse.

One of my favorite presentations from the most recent Gel - this past April 30 in New York - was that of David Greenberger. As the creator of Duplex Planet, an ongoing project for 25 years now, David interviews elderly residents of nursing homes and sets the words to music.

David's work shows the power of listening with respect - not scripting or forcing the interaction, but rather setting some context and then letting the interviewee lead. As you'll see, this leads to unexpected moments - genuine, moving, funny - that would not be easily reached with a standard script ("Please tell me about the Great Depression").

For anyone who has attended a non-directed listening lab, the parallels are obvious. Directed, scripted usability tests miss a great opportunity to let the customer lead.

Below I've included my interview of David Greenberger, from the printed Gel program; and the transcript (graciously supplied by David) of all of the interviews he read during his Gel talk. His Gel talk, incidentally, is available on the Gel 2004 DVD.

Mark Hurst interviews David Greenberger

From the Gel 2004 program

David Greenberger, creator, Duplex Planet

Q [Mark Hurst] - You sit down with old people, transcribe the conversations, edit and publish them?

[David Greenberger] - Yes. The key, to me, is that my approach is not interviewing, it's absolutely conversational. Because we have had an exchange, the material I derive is unique to the person I've been speaking with.

Those people who are not always making sense have made for really amazing conversations. I set aside the constructs of whatever the medical condition is in favor of the moment. The best way to get to know someone is to go with them wherever they're going conversationally, not to correct them when they're wrong about some facts. Ultimately relationships are not about a lot of data, but rather connections with people.

If some guy is telling me he rode around in a jeep with Eisenhower at the end of the war, that he picked up hookers and bought them ice cream, I get him to talk more about that. For me to say, "No, that never happened" or insist on something more linear will only stop the exchange. So I've found it best to accept these fanciful flights and the sometimes factually incorrect responses. It's not about what's verifiable, but about spending time with a guy with stories like that.

There's no escape from decline in life, it is part of aging, and I feel luckier for having known someone who's gone through it. The experience puts a face on the process, unlike the homogenizing effect of a diagnosis like Alzheimer's. And I have the benefit of not having known him before, not knowing what he was tied up in. We start fresh, right now.

Q - How do you describe your work?

My work doesn't fit easily into a category. Because it's about old people, often I need to dispel assumptions. I'm not trying to create a documentary about these people's lives. It's not oral history, it's not social work. My work falls between these things, though sometimes they do play a small part. For me, I'm working with characters and voices, using these as my medium, my "paint."

We're given very few meaningful examples of aging. I mean our own personal aging. It helps to have some broader examples of aging than just seeing our own family members getting older.

Q - How do you pay the bills?

I bring in income with extra projects and side interests, like doing artist residencies. Last year I created a couple of pieces for regional institutes.

I've been involved in music in one form or another my whole life. I write commentary and music reviews for National Public Radio's All Things Considered and some print publications.

(At Gel, David was accompanied by pianist Lee Feldman.)

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David Greenberger interviews nursing home residents

Below are the short pieces that David read during his Gel 2004 talk, now available on the Gel 2004 DVD.

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"NYC"
(from a conversation with Daphne Matthews)

I like New York. I've been there nine times. It's fascinating, it is - I think it's great. I went to the U.N. every time I went, except the last time. I like Yonkers, that's where my sister-in-law lives. But if they're gonna sell Tylenol there I'm not goin' - that's where that woman lived who died from Tylenol!

But I really do like New York. We stayed at the Times Square Hotel, and we stayed at the Plymouth Hotel. And we went to Radio City Music Hall. A hundred dancing girls all doing the same thing - that's really something! and what legs! They've got pretty faces, too. Those geezers are terrific! And in the same place I saw a movie of Cary Grant. Some bad guys were chasing him all over the President's faces on Mount Rushmore. I like Cary, he's nice.

We went to the Statue of Liberty and went up the Empire State Building. And we walked past Madison Square Garden and I touched the door. Somebody said, "Isn't that Madison Square Garden?" And my minister said, "Why yes it is." And I said, "Oh wow, I want to go in!" And he said, "Well, there's nothing going on in there now." And I said, "Well I want to at least touch the door - I don't think they'll mind that." And I went over and laid my own hand right on the door.

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